Does America Need Chaos? – The Atlantic

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One factor tomorrow’s election will take a look at is Individuals’ urge for food for chaos, notably the type that Donald Trump has been exhibiting in the previous couple of months of his marketing campaign. After weeks of operating a disciplined marketing campaign, Trump’s advisers misplaced management of their candidate, the Atlantic employees author Tim Alberta reported this week. Trump grew stressed and bored and drifted off script in his marketing campaign appearances. Throughout a summer time interview with the Nationwide Affiliation of Black Journalists, for instance, he mused aloud about Kamala Harris, “I don’t know. Is she Indian or is she Black?” From the attitude of his advisers, Trump’s string of offensive public statements needlessly alienated potential voters. Members of Trump’s marketing campaign employees advised Alberta that they grew to become disillusioned about their capability to rein of their candidate and left the marketing campaign.

Will this unleashed model of Trump have an effect on the election final result? On this week’s episode of Radio Atlantic, we discuss with Alberta and one other Atlantic employees author, Mark Leibovich, about how candidate Trump reworked over the summer time, how Kamala Harris’s marketing campaign reacted, the place every marketing campaign stands now, and what it means for the election. Alberta and Leibovich additionally supply tips about learn how to handle your internal chaos whereas watching the election outcomes.

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Hanna Rosin: I’m Hanna Rosin, and it is a bonus episode of Radio Atlantic. We’re recording the Monday earlier than Election Day. The candidates are furiously campaigning within the swing states. Sooner or later, their planes have been on the identical tarmac in North Carolina.

Over the weekend, Donald Trump mused about capturing reporters; Kamala Harris mentioned regular marketing campaign issues. And but the race continues to be one of many closest in American historical past.

Anyway, on this episode, I wish to get the within view of each political campaigns of their final days. So I’ve with me right now two seasoned political reporters, Mark Leibovich. Hello, Mark.

Mark Leibovich: Hello, Hanna.

Rosin: And Tim Alberta. Hello, Tim.

Tim Alberta: Hello, Hanna. Hello, Mark.

Leibovich: Hello, Tim. Isn’t it good to be seasoned right now?

Alberta: I’m feeling very seasoned.

Rosin: Yeah, that’s a cliché phrase. It doesn’t imply outdated. What’s a extra flattering phrase than seasoned? Like, skilled? Or longtime? Longtime: that’s flattering, I believe.

Leibovich: It’s undoubtedly flattering.

Alberta: We don’t use veteran.

Rosin: No, veteran is outdated. How about lively?

Leibovich: Yeah, we’re very lively. Yeah. Are you able to inform by our voices?

Rosin: (Laughs.) Anyway, Mark, I perceive you’re writing up a preelection information to learn how to strategy Tuesday night time.

Leibovich: Mainly, I’m attempting to gather a useful toolkit to learn how to strategy Election Day from kind of a sensible standpoint so far as what info you’ll be able to ignore, but in addition a behavior and even mindfulness standpoint about learn how to not drive your self needlessly loopy, how to not be triggered by the sorts of issues that Election Evening protection will most likely overload you with.

And that features Donald Trump most likely declaring victory wildly prematurely or erroneously, which, I imply, can be information as a result of he’s one of many candidates, nevertheless it additionally ought to shock nobody. And there are methods to type of situation your self, or attempt to, going into what tomorrow night time can be like—which can be clearly very anxious for lots of people.

Rosin: I see. So as a substitute of “We all know it’s going to be like that,” like, “We all know that we don’t have sufficient info.”

We all know that there most likely isn’t going to be, kind of, instantaneous early readability. So that you’re going into it eyes broad open, doing what? Like, what? As a result of perhaps Tim wants this recommendation.

Leibovich: Effectively, I’m attempting. Effectively, I believe all of us want this recommendation, Hanna. I imply, I believe it’s an strategy to how we devour info, how we get info.

I talked to a few Democratic consultants who mentioned that one of many first issues they do is flip off all their textual content notifications, as a result of any type of textual content notification is designed to set off you on Election Evening.

There’s lots of manipulation of your feelings earlier than the precise solely info that’s obligatory, which, essentially the most helpful info goes to come back in most likely after 11 o’clock, or fairly late. It might be days later. The concept is the information will discover you. Flip off your telephone should you can. Info is coming in haphazardly from 1,000,000 completely different instructions, out of order, in no explicit sequence by any means, about one thing that has already occurred—that means the voting has already occurred. So no management is there. That is mainly simply folks throwing info out in no order, and it’s not essentially—

Rosin: It’s not cumulative and it’s not including as much as—

Leibovich: —Not cumulative.

Rosin: Precisely. Precisely.

Leibovich: So anyway, that’s one purpose you’ll be able to skip that half.

Rosin: Fascinating. Tim, do you assume you can try this?

Alberta: I concern that within the try and not drive myself loopy, I might drive myself loopy. In different phrases, you’ll discover your mind stacking up with the entire issues that different folks know that you just don’t, as a result of in that second you have got determined to sequester your self or at the least to kind of rigidly compartmentalize your feelings and your mind waves and your political consumption.

And subsequently the exit polling exhibiting the variety of non-college whites in Maricopa County breaking away from Trump is misplaced on you in that pivotal second, when that might be the little parcel of data that’s obligatory so that you can imagine that you’ve lastly discovered this electoral equation and that you’ve a bead on it on this second.

It’s a recreation of inches, and the inches are in every single place round us, Hanna. So how might I surrender any of these inches once we are so near the top of the sport? I would like the zen that Mark is providing, however I simply don’t discover it sensible.

Rosin: Hmm. You know the way typically you begin with the second of meditation? We’ll contemplate that our second of meditation, and now we’re gonna go into the annoying a part of this dialog. So, Tim, you’ve been overlaying the Republican facet carefully, and you lately spent lots of time speaking to Trump’s advisers.

How would you describe the state of the marketing campaign within the weeks earlier than the election?

Alberta: I might describe it as one thing barely faraway from the serenity that Mark has described for us.

Rosin: Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Alberta: Yeah, look, Hanna, I believe the context right here is absolutely essential: that this Trump marketing campaign, in contrast to the earlier two, was for almost all of its time in operation, actually fairly disciplined, fairly sensible.

The folks operating the marketing campaign had executed a fairly good job of maintaining Trump out of his personal manner and speaking him out of dangerous concepts and kind of curbing a few of his most self-destructive impulses. And what we’ve seen within the final couple of months is mainly Trump going full Trump, and an incapacity amongst these senior advisers to essentially do something to cease it.

This has been type of the proverbial slow-motion automotive wreck. And, you realize, it’s not simply Trump himself, though in fact he’s the inspiration for the chaos. He’s the generator of the entire turmoil that you just see.

He’s on the heart of this chaos, however the chaos ripples out away from him. And so whenever you ask your self the query of how might or not it’s that at a very powerful public occasion of the marketing campaign, with 20,000-plus jammed into Madison Sq. Backyard in prime time, the entire world watching, and also you pay 1,000,000 {dollars} to placed on this occasion, and the man who kicks it off is a vulgar, shock jock, insult-roast comic who was dropped by his personal expertise company for utilizing racial slurs onstage—how might this particular person probably be booked into that place to open for Trump in that setting? It’s precisely the kind of factor that the folks round him had been actually profitable in avoiding for many of the marketing campaign. However in the end, in the important thing residence stretch right here, within the kind of the witching hours of this marketing campaign, it’s all fallen aside.

Rosin: Mark, similar for the Democrats. How would you describe the place they’re?

Leibovich: I might say I’ve talked to a good variety of Democrats on the marketing campaign in the previous couple of days.

It seems like one thing approaching the final space of the ballpark of confidence.

Rosin: Fascinating! Anomalous for Democrats.

Leibovich: Effectively, they’re so extremely fast to embrace dangerous information and to go proper from dangerous information to deep ranges of doomsaying. I’ve not seen that in the previous couple of days.

I imply, look, I believe their numbers internally appear a little bit higher. I believe lots of the exterior polls have been encouraging. And I believe you’ll be able to’t underestimate how a lot of a prepare wreck Trump’s final 10 days have been, in a manner that, if he loses, I believe folks will very a lot level to.

Rosin: So, Mark, I keep in mind we sat right here within the spring and mentioned how completely stagnant this race could be. Like, we have been simply sleepwalking right into a repeat.

Leibovich: However it was an amazing podcast. Everybody ought to hearken to it once more. (Laughs.)

Rosin: However it was very, you realize—we didn’t have a lot to say. After which for everyone, the reset button acquired pressed in July.

Tim, the total Trump who we’ve seen on the marketing campaign path for the previous couple of months began, truly, in accordance with your account, earlier than Harris entered the race. So what occurred?

Alberta: I believe that perhaps the correct visible right here, Hanna, is just like the wild animal that has chased down its prey and has mauled it largely to loss of life and is now simply kind of pawing at it, toying with it, not sure of actually what to do as a result of, properly, what’s left to do?

Donald Trump actually discovered himself, in accordance with all of the reporting I did, kind of over it. Kind of uninterested in operating in opposition to Joe Biden. As a result of right here is, in his view, this kind of hapless outdated man who can’t even string collectively sentences, a lot much less actually defend himself or go on offense in a significant manner in opposition to Trump. And so I believe that he’s taking a look at Joe Biden considering, Gosh that is kind of a bore, and round this time, in fact, in late June, early July, Trump’s polling is healthier than it’s ever been in any of his three campaigns for the presidency.

The battleground polling is exhibiting him constantly pulling forward 5, six, seven factors throughout all of those states. The nationwide polling is up. His favorability is up. Democrats are getting ready for a massacre not simply to lose the presidency however to lose the Home and the Senate, and it’s, you realize, The sky is falling. And everybody round Trump is kind of giddy and gleeful. They’re wanting round like, Nothing can cease us.

And round this time is whenever you began to see Trump speaking a little bit bit otherwise, behaving a little bit bit otherwise, in accordance with folks near him—nearly searching for some dysfunction and a few mayhem to inject into the marketing campaign. He begins speaking to folks on the skin. And when Kamala Harris will get within the race, he was offended, on the one hand, as a result of he thought he had it kind of sewn up in opposition to Biden, and he appreciated operating in opposition to Biden within the sense that Biden actually, you realize, couldn’t punch again.

However I believe additionally he’s kind of excited within the sense that with Harris, he’s acquired this reside goal. He’s capable of channel a few of the base instincts that introduced him to energy within the first place. You already know, Trump, I believe, seen the Harris switcheroo as a brand new lease on life within the sense that he was going to have the ability to go entire hog once more.

However the folks round him have been saying, No, no, no, no. That’s precisely what we don’t need you to do. And albeit, the explanation you’re on this place is since you’ve listened to us and since you haven’t been going rogue and operating the type of, you realize, completely undisciplined #YOLO 2016 marketing campaign that you just wish to run and that you’d run should you have been left to your personal units. And round that point is when Trump began to lose confidence in these individuals who have been giving him that recommendation, and he introduced in different folks to assist with the marketing campaign, and from there issues actually began to spiral.

Rosin: So, Mark, how are Democrats responding as Trump is reasserting this peak-Trump model of himself?

Leibovich: I believe in a type of measured manner. I imply, I believe, look, the height Trump just about speaks for itself. It’s not such as you want folks to amplify. I imply, to some extent you do, as a result of shops that lots of Republicans watch—like, say, Fox—are going to be insulated from lots of this, as a result of simply Fox doesn’t present it.

I imply, that’s simply not their level of emphasis, However I believe they’ve been very deft—they’ve made lots of advertisements across the type of altering abortion messaging. I imply, even Melania Trump saying that she believes in a lady’s proper to decide on, issues like that, to some extent, they’re attempting to spotlight it, however to a different diploma—it is a large political-operative cliché, however they’re operating their race.

And I believe the Democrats, starting when Biden stepped apart, I believe Harris has carried out significantly better than lots of people thought she would, and I believe her marketing campaign has made lots of good selections, and she or he herself has made lots of good selections.

Rosin: It does, from the skin, appear precisely the alternative of the chaos contained in the Trump marketing campaign that Tim described, as a result of should you assume again to when Biden dropped out, there was some fear that the transition may not be easy.

Leibovich: Oh, 100%. I imply, Tim and I, keep in mind, we have been on the Republican conference collectively, and that was such a second, as a result of Trump was actually type of at his peak then, which is type of ironic to say, as a result of the assassination try had taken place two days earlier than the conference began. However his reputation, I imply—there was a way of confidence at that conference which was simply off the charts to a level to which you can nearly sense the boredom creeping into Trump when he’s giving this acceptance speech, and I assume it was Thursday night time, after which about midway by way of, he simply type of went off the rails, and he simply kind of—it grew to become only a very unhinged acceptance speech, went from type of a gripping one the place he’s describing the assassination try and one thing utterly completely different, which type of grew to become a metaphor for the way the remainder of the marketing campaign would unfurl for him.

And naturally, three days later, Biden acquired out after which the world modified once more.

Rosin: All proper, up subsequent, I ask Tim and Mark whether or not the chaotic last months of the Trump marketing campaign might find yourself costing him the election. That’s after the break.

[Break]

Rosin: So from a marketing campaign supervisor’s perspective, the chaos is disturbing, however what we truly care about is whether or not it has any impression on voting day. Tim, so what are the methods the drama you describe might have an effect on the election? Like, say, turnout or no matter it’s that we’re fearful about?

Alberta: Effectively, look, if these episodes have been contained to simply Trump being a little bit bit goofy or going off message and kind of ranting and raving in regards to the newest one that mentioned one thing very nasty about him on cable information, I don’t assume it will have a lot real-world impact. However I believe that a few of what we’re unpacking right here over these previous 10, 11, 12 weeks, Hanna, is one thing that really will get to a elementary weak spot, which is a failure of the Trump crew to increase its coalition.

Or on the very least what we’re seeing is the way in which wherein the potential of increasing the Trump coalition has been undermined by Trump’s personal actions or by the folks near him. So, for instance, we all know based mostly on six months of actually stable, constant knowledge that Trump is more likely to carry out higher with Latino voters as a complete and notably with Latino males underneath 40 than any Republican nominee in fashionable historical past.

And but, when the dominant headline popping out of your rally at Madison Sq. Backyard the week earlier than the election is that considered one of your audio system calls the island of Puerto Rico floating trash within the ocean, that is self-sabotage.

One other core element of this Trump marketing campaign, from the start, has been How can we maintain our margins tight within the suburbs exterior of Detroit and Milwaukee and Philly and Vegas and elsewhere? How can we maintain our margins tight with these college-educated, suburban girls? We’re not going to win them, proper? However how can we handle to maintain it shut? How can we lose them by simply seven or eight factors as a substitute of by 16, 17, 18, 20 factors?

And whenever you take a look at, for instance, the choice of J. D. Vance and, you realize, his outdated, greatest-hits reel round childless cat women, and he thinks abortion must be unlawful nationwide, proper?

And there’s simply one thing that kind of went basically awry over the summer time. I believe Mark is true. Each of us have been remarking on the conference about the way it was successfully an early Election Evening victory social gathering. I imply, they weren’t even—Republicans in Milwaukee weren’t even speaking in regards to the marketing campaign as if it have been going to be aggressive. It was already over. The fats girl was singing onstage in prime time in Milwaukee. And but, I keep in mind corresponding with a number of sensible Republicans—Trump supporters—whereas I used to be there, they usually have been a little bit bit nervous in regards to the Vance choice. After which on Thursday night time, to Mark’s level, Trump offers this kind of bizarre, meandering speech that appears to squander lots of the goodwill that he had coming into that occasion due to the assassination try. And it felt like between these two issues—the Vance choice after which the speech—after which, you realize, 24 hours after leaving Milwaukee, Biden will get out, Harris takes over the ticket, and all of a sudden, these dominoes began to fall.

And what we noticed was the entire best-laid plans of the Trump operation go awry. And it wasn’t simply surface-level issues the place we are saying, Oh, that was kind of foolish he mentioned that. Or Oh, this was an unforced error, nevertheless it’ll be a fast information cycle and blow over. A few of what we’ve seen, I believe, may have an actual impression on the poll field.

Rosin: So what you’re describing is a marketing campaign technique that’s pretty conventional that they have been following pretty efficiently, which is: attempt to win over, you realize, some middle-of-the-road voters, or at the least not massively alienate these folks.

However, Trump has been operating a really completely different type of marketing campaign—like going to Madison Sq. Backyard—and fewer on-the-ground assets. And that looks like a sample throughout swing states, which for me raises the query whether or not what these managers are calling chaos, like, that’s the technique.

The technique was all the time simply: get lots of consideration.

Alberta: I believe it relies on the kind of consideration you’re speaking about. So when Trump goes to the southern border and has, you realize, lots of of cameras following him round there and talks in regards to the lives misplaced by the hands of unlawful immigrants committing crimes—you realize, that’s consideration, and it could actually even be consideration that’s rooted in some hyperbole, some demagoguing, some bombast. And but it’s productive consideration politically for the Trump folks, proper? They take a look at this kind of cost-benefit evaluation they usually acknowledge that, certain, we would antagonize some folks with this rhetoric. We would alienate some folks with our deal with these points, however we predict that the reward is way larger than the chance.

So there may be, I believe, loads of good consideration that the Trump folks do need. I believe what they’ve tried to keep away from is lots of the sideshow that’s interesting to a few of the very on-line, right-wing, MAGA troll base however does nothing so as to add to the coalition that I used to be describing a minute in the past. And in the end on the finish of the day, politics is a math equation. It’s multiplication and addition.

Leibovich: Proper, and I believe, to Tim’s level, immigration was an extremely efficient situation for Trump. Once you tip that into folks consuming pets in Springfield, Ohio, and simply how that took over the narrative of the Trump marketing campaign—I imply, one, they appear like fools; two, it insults the intelligence of so many individuals, and it turns a really severe and efficient situation for the Trump marketing campaign, immigration, right into a joke and into simply one thing actually, actually problematic and gross.

Rosin: So the artwork of operating a Trump marketing campaign, then, is to siphon and handle and titrate the chaos precisely proper. Like, you need the proper of chaos, the proper of consideration, however should you lose management of it, it simply comes again to chunk you. Is that mainly what’s occurred?

Alberta: Yeah, and it’s all the time gonna be a high-wire act, proper? These folks aren’t silly. They knew what they have been getting themselves into. In reality, Chris LaCivita—who is among the two folks managing the Trump presidential marketing campaign right here in 2024—inside just a few weeks of his resolution to affix the operation again within the fall of 2022, you have got Trump saying that he desires to terminate components of the Structure. You might have Trump saying and doing these kind of loopy, self-destructive issues. And LaCivita is kind of wanting round saying, What have I gotten myself into?

And naturally people who find themselves associates with him are saying, Come on, dude, you knew precisely what you have been signing up for. You already know precisely what you have been getting your self into. So I believe no matter diploma of self-delusion might exist on the outset, when a few of these people ally themselves with Donald Trump, you realize, it dissolves fairly shortly they usually grow to be clear-eyed about who they’re working for and what the challenges are.

And to your level, Hanna, sure, there’s inevitably going to be some chaos, some attention-seeking habits, some stuff that’s vulgar and inappropriate and racist and misogynistic and no matter else. Their job is to attempt to flip issues which are type of doubtlessly poisonous into productiveness. They’re attempting to mine coals out of manure right here, and once more, I can’t stress this sufficient: For many of the marketing campaign, they have been truly doing a fairly good job of it. However at a sure level I believe it simply turns into an excessive amount of to handle.

Rosin: Mark, do you get the sense that the Harris marketing campaign’s—you described it as, like, a little bit dose of confidence. Is that due to all the things that Tim has described?

Leibovich: Yeah. I imply, I believe Trump has given them a lot to work with. And never similar to, Oh, look, he mentioned this and kind of placing that on the market. I imply, early indications in regards to the revulsion that ladies are having—girls voters are having for Trump—much more so than regular. And the diploma to which they appear to be voting and perhaps even mendacity to their husbands about—to type of use a brand new advert that the Harris marketing campaign is utilizing which is mainly saying, you realize, lots of Republican girls are secretly going into the poll, and behind their husband’s again, they’re voting for Kamala Harris. So once more, Trump made their job simpler, however I believe they’ve taken what has been given to them. And I do really feel hopeful. Yeah. Once more, from speaking to a bunch of them, and ranges of very, very cautious optimism—which I might say, you realize, it will most likely be an absolute verboten factor for anybody wherever close to the Harris marketing campaign to point out something greater than only a tiny little bit of confidence. As a result of that’s going to harken again to the overconfidence of 2016 or the overconfidence of 2020, you realize—Biden was speculated to win by much more than he did.

And I believe what freaks everybody out is the concept that Trump, within the two instances he’s been on a general-election poll, has massively overperformed his polls. And now there’s a way that maybe that’s been accounted for in these polls they usually’re undercounting African American voters, girls voters, and so forth.

So anyway, I believe all of that’s type of baked into this, however look, I don’t wish to recommend that something apart from large nervousness is the default for everybody round this marketing campaign. And I assume each campaigns.

Rosin: Yeah. Okay. Let’s depart the listeners with ideas about Election Evening. There’s the zen choice, and hopefully lots of our listeners will reap the benefits of the zen choice.

Take an extended, 12-hour stroll. Be residence by 11 p.m. after which activate the tv. Wanting that, the map is absolutely broad and open. I imply, seven open states. It’s rather a lot. So for many who aren’t spiritually constructed for the zen choice, how—actually—will you guys be watching? Like, give a listener a information of what to be careful for on the night time.

Leibovich: Effectively, sure, there are seven battleground states. However I believe there’s rather a lot you’ll be able to study if you may get info from different states. You already know, there’s a ballot that everybody has been speaking about—lots of insiders have been speaking about over the previous couple of days—from Iowa. Iowa, nobody thought-about a swing state. Safely crimson, actually has been in the previous couple of elections, actually for Trump. Ann Selzer, a deeply revered pollster, got here up with this Des Moines Register ballot on Saturday night time, having Harris forward by three.

Now, placing apart whether or not Iowa’s now a battleground state—I imply, if it’s even within the ballpark of correct, I imply, as a euphoric consequence for folks on Workforce Harris. I imply, look, if there are some early numbers from, say, South Carolina, Florida, that, you realize, perhaps present Trump’s margins a little bit decrease than you’ll anticipate, probably that’s one thing you could study from.

So once more, it’s not simply the seven battlegrounds, which is able to most likely take some time to depend, particularly in a few of the states with legal guidelines that make it tougher to depend early votes. However, yeah, I imply, like, the entire nation does vote. It’s like, margins do matter, and I believe we are able to study from lots of people.

And look, even, like, Massachusetts, Vermont, Kentucky—I imply there are these early states that you realize precisely who’s going to win, however you’ll be able to study from.

Rosin: As a result of if the margins are smaller than they’re anticipated to be, then that’s a bit of information that’s attention-grabbing. Tim, what about you?

Alberta: So there’s a identified identified, and a identified unknown. The identified identified is that Democrats are persevering with to see erosion of their coalition, particular to African American males, Latino males, and to some extent younger voters.

And I believe particularly if we’re taking a look at Detroit, at Milwaukee, at Philly, at Atlanta, at Maricopa County—there are locations the place we must be listening to this, proper? I believe the identified unknown right here is: Does Donald Trump get crushed up amongst suburban girls, or does he get demolished amongst suburban girls?

And I believe that the reply to that query might be determinative to who’s sworn into workplace on January 20.

So I’m actually paying very shut consideration to the collar counties exterior of Philadelphia, to the WOW counties exterior of Milwaukee. It’s a must to take a look at Vegas and Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham. A few of these locations—I don’t wish to be reductive, however I actually do really feel like, in the end, that’s the place the election goes to be received or misplaced.

Rosin: Each of you might be saying: Search for indicators. It’s not simply large, broad swing states, however there are significant indicators in smaller election outcomes that you just’ll be searching for.

Alberta: That’s proper. It’s, once more, it’s only a numbers recreation. And it so occurs that essentially the most dense, vote-rich areas of persuadable voters are simply constantly present in these as soon as re,d then purple, now fairly blue suburbs. And so whether or not you’re watching the presidential race and even should you’re searching for a possible upset in a Senate race, like in Texas, the place Ted Cruz on paper seems to be like he’s going to win and perhaps even win comfortably. However take note of Harris County, Texas, which, on Election Evening in 2012, Obama and Romney fought Harris County to mainly a draw. I believe it was a matter of some hundred votes that separated them. Quick-forward, you realize, a decade. Democrats are carrying Harris County, which is the Houston suburbs—they’re carrying it by a quarter-million votes, 300,000 votes reliably, and that quantity’s solely going up.

So these are the components of the nation the place I believe should you’re paying shut consideration, you’ll begin to get a fairly good thought.

Rosin: Okay. I believe now we have choices for the meditators and choices for many who can’t deliver themselves to meditate. Thanks each for becoming a member of me on this present day earlier than the election.

Leibovich: Thanks, Hanna. Thanks, Tim.

Alberta: Mark, I’ll name you tomorrow. We are able to meditate collectively.

Leibovich: I stay up for it. Yep, we’ll be part of figurative palms.

Rosin: This episode was produced by Kevin Townsend and edited by Claudine Ebeid. It was engineered by Rob Smierciak. Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

I’m Hanna Rosin, and we’ll be again later this week to cowl the election, although probably sooner than our regular Thursday launch, relying on the outcomes.

Thanks for listening.