When Neighbors Dwell in Totally different Worlds

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Hosts Anne Applebaum and Peter Pomerantsev speak with Hanna Rosin concerning the new sequence We Dwell Right here Now. Rosin, alongside along with her co-host, Lauren Ober, not too long ago discovered that their new neighbors moved to Washington, D.C., to assist January 6 insurrectionists. Rosin and Ober determined to knock on their neighbors’ door. We Dwell Right here Now is a podcast sequence about what occurred subsequent. Subscribe to We Dwell Right here Now right here: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | iHeart

The next is a transcript of the episode:

Anne Applebaum: That is Anne Applebaum.

Peter Pomerantsev: And that is Peter Pomerantsev, and we’re right here with a visitor at this time, The Atlantic’s Hanna Rosin.

Hanna Rosin: Hello.

Applebaum: And though our sequence, Autocracy in America, has wrapped up, there may be nonetheless lots to do and take into consideration forward of the 2024 election.

Pomerantsev: Hanna is the host of The Atlantic’s weekly present referred to as Radio Atlantic, and she or he’s additionally simply launched a brand new podcast referred to as We Dwell Right here Now, a sequence.

Rosin: Yeah, We Dwell Right here Now is the story of my accomplice, Lauren Ober, and I discovering that we had some new neighbors, and it’s about our effort to get to know these neighbors. And it turned out, these neighbors have been supporting the January 6 insurrectionists.

Pomerantsev: On the finish of this episode, we’ll embrace your complete first episode for listeners to listen to. However we need to begin with a little bit clip that provides you a way of what first launched them into making the sequence.

Applebaum: Hanna, I’ve had confrontation experiences myself.

I used to be as soon as at a dinner in Poland—this can be a couple years in the past—with previous associates who instantly began repeating a conspiracy idea concerning the authorities, and it occurred to be the federal government that my husband had been a part of. And I attempted to pay attention politely and go like, Uh-huh, yeah, that’s true, yeah, positive. After which ultimately I left the room.

Rosin: Uh-huh.

Applebaum: And I’m unsure I might have lasted even that lengthy with individuals who weren’t previous associates and have been doing the identical factor. So we’re not going to speak all about We Dwell Right here Now, since many listeners might not have but heard the podcast, however I do need you to inform me a little bit bit extra about that have of being shouted down in your neighborhood—or, extra precisely, being together with your accomplice as she was being shouted down. Have been you by no means tempted to argue again?

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, I actually assume it’s an accident of how the interplay occurred. If it had occurred at dinner, I suppose you possibly can mood your self, such as you simply described. You possibly can by no means see these individuals once more. Like, you could possibly ignore them or shout them down after which select to by no means see them once more. However as a result of these individuals lived a few blocks away, I type of knew I used to be going to see them lots. So perhaps that muted my response. My accomplice doesn’t have a mute button, however I simply sort of knew that I higher take a step again and take into consideration what I need to do, as a result of I used to be going to run into these individuals who, you already know, occur to have militia stickers and are seemingly aggressive. So I simply sort of wanted a minute to assume what I wished to do. With out that pause, I’m unsure this story would have occurred in the way in which that it occurred.

Pomerantsev: And the way did you construct the connection with them? I imply, was it, was there any sort of discomfort or hazard concerned once you first met them? After which, however most significantly, how did you construct belief? I imply, how would they be taught to belief you?

Rosin: You realize, it’s attention-grabbing. When you resolve to step into an alternate world, it’s virtually like it’s a must to make the choice. More often than not, we simply don’t make that call. We’re like, That is cuckoo. I’m not going. I don’t share something in frequent with these individuals. Like, we don’t also have a shared set of details in the way in which we would have 15, 20 years in the past. So there’s simply—like, there’s no starting to this relationship. For no matter purpose, we closed our eyes and determined to step into that different actuality. And when you make that call, you simply do it very, very, very gingerly.

On this case, they occur to do a public occasion, which we knew was occurring each single evening, and it’s out on a avenue nook in D.C. And it’s public house. So that truly gave us the liberty to indicate up at this public occasion. It’s outdoors the D.C. Jail, and so they’re in assist of the January 6 prisoners. The detainees are all held in a segregated wing of the D. C. Jail, so that they maintain a protest each single evening at the very same time. So you already know, you possibly can metal your self up each evening and say like, Okay, tonight’s the evening I’m going to go to the vigil, you already know?

Applebaum: Can I really ask you some extra about that vigil? As a result of one of many issues We Dwell Right here Now does, it explores the way in which during which individuals can rewrite historical past, which is likely one of the issues that occurs. And also you discuss how on the vigil, there are posters with faces of people that died on January 6. And every poster reads Murdered by Capitol Police, despite the fact that just one individual was discovered to have died from a bullet fired by the police, And so there’s now a story that the individuals in jail are the great guys and the individuals outdoors of jail are the unhealthy guys. I really spent 20 years writing books concerning the historical past of the Soviet Union, and that is very a lot what autocratic regimes do: They modify the way in which you keep in mind historical past. They make heroes out of villains, and vice versa. And the way, how did you see that occuring and the way did you come to grasp the way it labored? Why was it profitable among the many individuals that you simply have been visiting?

Rosin: Effectively, that was one of the crucial exceptional experiences I had—is being that near watching revisionism occur. Like, the nitty-gritty, going again and time and, Okay, when was the primary time that Trump talked about Ashli Babbitt?, who’s the lady who was shot by the Capitol Cops? As a result of initially, proper after January 6, many—even Trump supporters—mentioned, you know, The Capitol Police officer did job. You realize, He did his responsibility. It was a horrible day. Like, should you have a look at issues that occurred in early January, all people was sharing the truth of what occurred on January 6. And then you definitely watch how, slowly, sort of individuals peel away from that actuality. Trump begins attempting out traces at his rallies. Oh, Ashli Babbitt was murdered. He makes use of the phrases, “they,” lots. You realize, they killed Ashli Babbitt. They did this. And at that time, the Huge Lie—the lie that the election was stolen—might have light away, prefer it felt like a second the place it might have simply been relegated to historical past, after which it’s like, hastily, there’s this collective choice, Oh no, we’re going to revive this. And the way in which we’re going to revive it’s by speaking first about this martyr, after which about this group of individuals, and instantly black is white and white is black.

And since these individuals who we obtained near, they’re type of innocents on this narrative. One of many primary characters is Micki Witthoeft, who’s the mom of Ashli Babbitt. And simply take into consideration that. She’s a grieving mom. It’s as if her emotional-grief actuality begins to align with Trump’s messaging on this excellent storm, after which hastily, issues that aren’t true appear, not simply true, however righteous.

Pomerantsev: Inform me a bit concerning the fantasy, although, as a result of on the one hand, it’s an alternate actuality, which you described so nicely simply now, however then again, isn’t it fairly American on the similar time? I imply, I really like once you discuss, you already know, how they describe themselves as “saving democracy.” They’re the true patriots. I imply, as you encountered it, did you discover it utterly alien fantasy or one thing that truly type of resonated with so many American tales about themselves: rebelling in opposition to Washington, the entire—

Rosin: Sure, I imply, one factor that I got here to really feel concerning the January 6 detainees, like, usually it could pop into my head: them in costume, like, Okay, they’re, they’re type of role-playing 1776 right here, you already know. Notably, one in every of our episodes is a few jury trial. My accomplice was very randomly referred to as onto a jury, as many individuals in D.C. are, and it occurred to be a January 6 case. And never solely that, nevertheless it occurred to be one in every of these January 6 instances during which you’re feeling that somebody simply sort of misplaced it for a day. You realize, it’s a dad; he has 5 youngsters; by a choose’s rely, extraordinarily regulation abiding; been married for a very long time. However then throughout that day, simply sort of, you already know, went nuts.

And as you get nearer to what they did that day, you do really feel like there was only a rush, like a rush of type of feeling heroic, you already know, feeling patriotic, feeling such as you have been saving the nation, feeling like you could have this unbelievable mission. After which I feel, one factor that no person predicted is that they did maintain these guys in a segregated wing of the D.C. Jail, collectively. We don’t often try this. I imply, Gitmo is the opposite place the place we’ve finished that. However the D.C. Jail is basically Black. And so these guys had a status at that day, should you keep in mind, as being white supremacists, so they didn’t need to throw them into the D.C. Jail. However the results of protecting them collectively, I imply, you possibly can think about what occurred.

Applebaum: So that is precisely the factor that I wished to ask you about. I used to be very struck by one of many characters who you interview and describe. That is Brandon Fellows, who was a man who was virtually by chance caught up in January the sixth. He entered the Capitol. He wound up smoking a joint in one of many places of work within the Capitol. Because of this, he was arrested. And since he was a part of this group of prisoners, he was primarily radicalized. And that story of how the prisoners collectively radicalized each other, created a mythology round themselves, it jogged my memory of so many different moments in historical past when that’s occurred, I imply, for each good and for unhealthy. The IRA in British prisons radicalized; um, varied jihadis and varied prisons around the globe are mentioned to have radicalized that method too. But additionally the ANC in South Africa, who have been collectively in a jail on Robben Island for a few years. I imply, that’s how they created their cohesive motion. So it could actually work positively too. Weren’t you tempted to try to speak him out of it, the place you—did you not need to say, “Don’t you see what’s occurring to you?”

Rosin: Yeah, I imply, with him, that intuition was very highly effective as a result of, you already know, he’s barely older than my oldest little one. And so I—so in his case, I did have the intuition of, like, attempting to shake this out of him.

Like, “Don’t you see?,” like “You have been on this—you have been on this jail,” you already know, and he was on this jail. He got here in as a goofball. Then he got here to see these guys as, like, fierce and difficult. And by the top, he got here to see them, as you mentioned, Peter, as true patriots, so it’s not simply that they have been robust guys. It was like they have been true and righteous and the subsequent technology of founding fathers and he was similar to, Nope, such as you simply don’t, you don’t get it. I’m lethal critical right here.

Pomeranstev: So that you didn’t construct a coalition with them, you didn’t persuade them, you don’t attempt to persuade them to alter events. However you spent a yr with them. What’s it that you simply discovered significant in that interplay? And why is it significant for all of us to listen to about it? I imply, it’s fascinating, but in addition what’s the significance of doing one thing like this?

Rosin: I can solely let you know a few restricted significance, which is that over the previous few years, I’ve began to learn—as I guess you guys have—you already know, what do you could have, like, all of us throw up our fingers: We’re so polarized. We’re not even residing in the identical actuality. We are able to’t speak to one another.

You can not go right into a dialog, as a lot as you deeply, deeply need to, with the intention of adjusting the opposite individual’s thoughts. That may be a dropping technique. Don’t do it. It’s so exhausting. It’s as exhausting in politics as it’s in a relationship. It’s very exhausting as a result of all of us simply need to try this. And so your solely possibility is to only open your thoughts, hear what they need to say, be curious, ask questions, and that’s it.

Applebaum: And the way do you try this with out changing into indignant?

Rosin: It’s— [Laughs.] I imply, that’s your, they only, as a result of I’ve been to sufficient {couples} remedy [Laughs.] that it’s like, that’s your solely possibility. And also you virtually need to do it with a leap of religion that there’s one thing human on the finish of that.

Pomerantsev: So the which means, in a method, is studying to only behave and work together otherwise.

Rosin: There are shocking sort of moments of non-nastiness that come up once you strategy the world from that perspective.

Pomerantsev: I imply, I spend a whole lot of my time writing about propaganda and speaking to individuals with all kinds of deeply warped beliefs, and at one level I spotted that the one worthwhile query I might ask that may result in a dialog that was human was, How did it begin? How did you begin believing in X?

Rosin:Sure.

Pomerantsev: And then you definitely’d at all times get a really private story.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: Often about some type of trauma. I’m not saying that’s any sort of excuse, nevertheless it instantly grew to become a human story about how somebody is making sense of the world.

Rosin: Sure.

Pomerantsev: And instantly there was an individual. Once more, I by no means modified them. They’re nonetheless gonna do horrible issues, however not less than I knew they have been an individual. I don’t know. Perhaps, in the long term, that helps us provide you with higher methods to take care of it. However not instantly. It’s not a like aha second.

Rosin: Yeah. It’s not a kumbaya. It’s similar to, it truly is a leap of religion ’trigger as you’re doing it, you’re feeling, Am I doing one thing harmful? Like humanizing this propaganda? Like, Is that this flawed, what I’m doing? And also you simply sort of stay with that doubt and you retain asking questions, you already know?

Pomeranstev: Yeah. However people do numerous unhealthy issues. Humanizing doesn’t imply making it good; it simply makes it human. You realize, that doesn’t—it is like, Ooh, humanizing. Yeah, I feel perhaps the phrase humanizing must lose its constructive aura. People are fairly terrible.

Rosin: That’s a reasonably good thought.

Pomeranstev: However they’re human. [Laughs.]

Rosin: So what’s the level of humanizing should you take away the constructive facets? Humanizing is sweet as a result of …

Pomerantsev: You begin to see the problem for what it’s slightly than one thing esoteric. You realize, it’s an actual individual doing actual issues. Due to this fact we will take care of it.

Applebaum: Hanna Rosin is the co-host together with Lauren Ober of the brand new six-part podcast sequence from The Atlantic referred to as We Dwell Right here Now. Discover We Dwell Right here Now wherever you take heed to podcasts.

Pomerantsev: And we have now the primary episode right here. Preserve listening and, Hanna, thanks for speaking with us at this time.

Rosin: Thanks each.

[We Live Here Now Episode 1: “We’re Allowed to Be Here”]

Lauren Ober: When the neighbor incident first occurred, it didn’t actually really feel very like something. Or perhaps we have been each too surprised to take all of it in.

Hanna Rosin: It wasn’t till we began telling different individuals the story and they reacted that it started to really feel like perhaps we’d found one thing.

Ober: I suppose it began similar to every other canine stroll. Hanna and I leashed up our pups and set out from our home on our post-dinner stroll. It was early November of 2023, and I keep in mind it was unseasonably heat. We headed off down the hill from our home, in the direction of our neighborhood park.

[Music]

Rosin: A block previous the park, Lauren noticed it: A black Chevy Equinox with Texas plates we’d seen parked across the neighborhood. Only a fundamental American SUV aside from the stickers that coated the again windshield—

Ober: —stickers we’re very a lot not used to seeing in our mixed-race, mixed-income neighborhood. Our vibe is extra like, Make D.C. the 51st state, and, No taxation with out illustration.

However these stickers have been a combo platter of skulls and American flags. There was a Roman numeral for 3—the image of a militia group referred to as the Three Percenters—and the pièce de résistance: a large decal within the heart of the again window that learn, free our patriots. j4j6, which means, Justice for January 6.

Rosin: Lauren notices each new or completely different factor within the neighborhood, and this automotive was undoubtedly completely different. As we walked previous it, Lauren mentioned what she at all times mentioned after we noticed this automotive.

Ober: “There’s that fucking militiamobile once more!”

Proper after I mentioned that reasonably unneighborly factor, the passenger-side window rolled down, cigarette smoke curled out of the automotive, and the individual inside shouted, “Justice for J6!”

Rosin: To which Lauren mentioned—

Ober: “You’re within the flawed neighborhood for that, honey.” After which the lady within the automotive mentioned phrases I’m not going to overlook anytime quickly: “We stay right here now. So suck it, bitch.”

We’ll get to who that individual is quickly sufficient. However we’re not there but. After we first encountered the lady from the automotive, we had no thought who we have been coping with. I simply knew I used to be sufficiently put in my place. “Effectively, okay,” I keep in mind saying to Hanna as we walked again dwelling.

Rosin: I keep in mind, after it occurred, we walked away in complete silence. That’s my reminiscence—every of us looping in our personal heads about one thing.

Ober: I keep in mind being mad as a result of I misplaced. (Laughs.)

Rosin: Proper.

Ober: As a result of I didn’t get the ultimate phrase, and since I simply stored pondering, like, the entire mixture of it felt unhealthy to me. It’s like, Militia stickers. Justice for J6. We stay right here. You simply referred to as me a reputation. The entire thing was very misplaced. And I felt it was a little bit destabilizing.

Rosin: Yeah, yeah. I walked dwelling in a half hypervigilant-neighborhood-watch mind—like, Who lives right here now? What are they doing right here? Are we going to get into extra of those confrontations?—and a half journalism mind, like, Who’s we? The place do they stay? Why are there right here now? These have been my two tracks after I was strolling dwelling.

[Music]

​Ober: I’m Lauren Ober.

Rosin: And I’m Hanna Rosin.

Ober: And from The Atlantic, that is We Dwell Right here Now.

A lot of the nation watched January 6 from a secure distance: one thing occurring of their Twitter feeds or on their telephone screens. However for these of us residing in D.C., it was occurring in our yard.

Donald Trump: I do know that everybody right here will quickly be marching over to the Capitol constructing to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.

Rioter: Begin making an inventory. Put all these names down. And we begin searching them down one after the other.

Particular person on bullhorn inside Congress: We had a disbursement of tear gasoline within the Rotunda. Please be suggested there are masks below your seats. Please seize a masks.

[Music]

All Issues Thought of host Ailsa Chang: In Washington, D.C., a curfew has now taken impact from 6 p.m. Japanese tonight to six a.m. Thursday morning.

Ober: So we have been really left with the wreckage of that day. We have been in a militarized metropolis. We have been residing below a curfew. Streets have been blocked off. The home windows have been all boarded up. And also you felt such as you have been residing, if not in a warzone, in a harmful place.

Rosin: And there was Nationwide Guard all over the place. All of the shops have been closed, and there have been only a few common individuals strolling round doing common issues. And I used to be simply pondering, The place am I? What metropolis is that this?

Ober: Proper. I purchased a baseball bat for cover.

Rosin: I do not forget that.

Ober: Which is why, two-plus years later, it felt like this entire time frame we’d slightly overlook was racing again. Donald Trump was trying like he’d be the Republican nominee, and a second Trump presidency appeared doable. Plus, we had a automotive with militia stickers lurking in our neighborhood.

Rosin: So no, we didn’t welcome January 6 supporters creeping again to the scene of the crime. But additionally, we wished to know what they have been as much as.

[Music]

Ober: Within the speedy aftermath of January 6, there have been three names I related to what occurred on the Capitol: The QAnon Shaman, for apparent causes; Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes as a result of he appeared actually harmful, and in addition he had a watch patch; and Ashli Babbitt, who has the whole lot to do with our new neighbors’ arrival in D.C.

4 individuals died that day, however I solely keep in mind listening to about Ashli. Perhaps that’s as a result of she was the one rioter killed by regulation enforcement.

Ashli Babbitt was a Trump diehard, so it’s not shocking she made her option to D.C. for the rally. She was a Second Modification–loving libertarian. She wholeheartedly believed in MAGA and QAnon. Throughout the pandemic, she was hostile about masks mandates and refused to get vaccinated. When California issued a stay-at-home order, she tweeted, “That is that commie bullshit!”

Rosin: The day earlier than her dying, Ashli tweeted in QAnon converse: “Nothing will cease us….they will try to try to strive however the storm is right here and it’s descending upon D.C. in lower than 24 hours….darkish to mild!”

Ashli Babbitt: We’re strolling to the Capitol in a mob. There’s an estimated over 3 million individuals right here at this time. So regardless of what the media tells you, boots on floor undoubtedly say one thing completely different. There’s a sea of nothing however crimson, white, and blue.

Ober: On the day of the riots, she appeared genuinely thrilled to be there.

Babbitt: And it was superb to get to see the president speak. We at the moment are strolling down the inaugural path to the Capitol constructing, 3 million plus individuals. God bless America, patriots.

Rosin: Extra like 50,000 individuals, give or take. And some thousand of them went into the Capitol—or, extra precisely, broke in. When the mob of protestors breached the Capitol, busting home windows and breaking down doorways, Ashli was proper there within the combine.

Rioter: There’s so many individuals. They’re going to push their method up right here.

Rosin: There are 4 movies shot by rioters that seize this second in its entirety: Ashli strides down a hallway like she is aware of the place she’s going. She’s adopted by different rioters, however they’re instantly stopped once they come to a set of doorways with giant window panels. By the home windows, you can also make out congresspeople being evacuated away from the rising mob. The gang Ashli is with has by chance landed on the bullseye, the precise place the place these congresspeople have been about to certify the election.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: On the opposite facet of the doorways is a cop with a gun, though it’s unclear if Ashli can see him. She’s the one girl in a sea of males, and she or he’s small, and she or he appears to be yelling.

Ashli: It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re flawed.

Rosin: “It’s our fucking home. We’re allowed to be in right here. You’re flawed.”

One of many rioters breaks a window, after which, out of nowhere, Ashli tries to climb by way of it.

[Crowd noise]

Rosin: The cop shoots.

Rioter: Oh! Oh, shit! Pictures fired! Pictures fired!

Rosin: She instantly falls backwards and lands on the ground. She jerks and convulses, and blood pours out of her mouth.

Rioter 1: She’s lifeless.

Rioter 2: She’s lifeless?

Rioter 1: She’s lifeless. I noticed the sunshine exit in her eyes. I noticed the lights exit.

Rioter 2: What occurred, bro? Inform the world.

Rosin: After which one thing occurs proper after she dies. It’s a element I missed at first, nevertheless it turned out to be a spark for the whole lot that may occur since that day. Folks round Ashli take out their cell telephones and begin filming.

Rioter 1: This particular person says he really noticed her die. He really noticed her die.

Rioter 2: I’ll publish that video. I’ve the video. I’ve the video of the man with the gun, and so they’re taking pictures her.

Rioter: Okay. I need to get with you. I’m with Infowars.com. I’m with Infowars.com.

Rioter 2: “Jayden X.” Have you ever ever heard of that?

Rosin: One individual says he’s from Infowars and gives to purchase footage from somebody nearer.

Rioter 1: I need to get your information proper now should you obtained that shot.

Rioter 2: I’ve all of it. I used to be proper on the door.

Rioter 2: Okay. I want that footage, man. It’s going to exit to the world. It’s going to alter a lot.

Rosin: Even within the chaos they notice: A martyr was born.

Ober: Rumors unfold instantly that the lady killed was 25, 21, a mere teenager. In precise truth, Ashli was 35. However the particulars didn’t matter. She was a younger, white girl within the prime of her life shot lifeless by a Black officer. Folks have been fast to level out that she was a veteran—a battle hero, even—purportedly upholding her oath to defend the Structure when she died.

On far-right, pro-Trump message boards post-January 6, Ashli was referred to as a freedom fighter and the “first sufferer of the second Civil Battle.” One individual wrote: “Your blood is not going to be in useless. We’ll avenge you.”

Rosin: Individuals who got here to January 6 thought they have been saving our democracy from evil forces attempting to steal an election.

Three years later, a few of them nonetheless assume that. And now, those self same evil forces are protecting J6 “freedom fighters” in jail. Justice for January 6—that’s what these window stickers on the Chevy are about.

Ober: This conspiracy has gotten extra elaborate over time: The riot was a setup, or, The prosecution of January 6 rioters represented gross authorities overreach, or, The federal government can flip by itself residents, even kill them.

Rosin: Quite a lot of the individuals who imagine these items have taken their cues from one girl: Ashli’s mom. Her identify is Micki Witthoeft.

Micki Witthoeft: Ashli was a beloved daughter, spouse, sister, granddaughter, niece, and aunt. However past that, she was the only bravest individual I’ve ever identified. She was the quintessential American girl. As we speak is a darkish day for our household and this nation, for they’ve misplaced a real patriot. I want to invite Donald J. Trump to say her identify—

[Music]

Ober: It took us a minute, however with the assistance of some associates, we lastly discovered that Micki was our new neighbor. I wasn’t positive what I thought of having Ashli Babbitt’s grieving mom come again to the place the place her daughter was killed. Why was she right here, in our D.C. neighborhood? What did she need? Was there some type of future Jan. 6 on the horizon? All of it felt just a bit too shut for consolation.

Within the days after our run-in with the neighbor, I Googled ’til my eyeballs dried out. There have been a whole lot of movies on social media that featured Micki however not a whole lot of strong data. I reported what I might discover to Hanna.

Ober: Do you need to know what the home is known as?

Rosin: What?

Ober: The Eagle’s Nest.

Rosin: Oh, cease. (Laughs.) What?

Ober: Yeah.

Rosin: No, we don’t have the Eagle’s Nest in our neighborhood.

Ober: What does the Eagle’s Nest imply to you?

Rosin: Some patriot factor.

Ober: No. Effectively, positive, one would assume, Oh, it’s patriotic, proper? American Eagle.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: It’s the place all of the eagles go. However have you learnt who else had a really explicit property referred to as the Eagle’s Nest?

Rosin: No.

Ober: Effectively, I’ll let you know. It’s Adolf Hitler. Nevertheless, to cite Micki, who defined to HuffPost why they referred to as the home the Eagle’s Nest:

Ober: She mentioned, We name our home the Eagle’s Nest, which some would say was Hitler’s hideout. However we’re Americans, and we received that battle, and we’re taking again the identify. So that is completely not an ode to Hitler.

Ober: Right here’s what else I discovered: The net movies of Micki didn’t precisely make me need to carry over a tray of home made, “Welcome to the neighborhood” brownies. A lot of shouting and scowling and basic unpleasantness.

Witthoeft: Why are you all right here should you’re going to let that occur? He mentioned, Why the hell are you all right here?

Particular person 2: He mentioned that to you? That was very unprofessional!

Particular person 3: They’re fascists.

Ober: In a single clip on-line, Micki is being arrested for “blocking and obstructing roadways.” She was at a march to honor the second anniversary of her daughter’s dying, and she or he walked into the road one too many instances. The D.C. cops didn’t admire that, and so they let her realize it.

It wasn’t the one time she obtained into it with the cops. A yr later—

Witthoeft: I attempt to present y’all respect. I’ve been arrested twice, and I’ve finished it peacefully. That’s bullshit. Your man is bullshit. That’s bullshit.

Officer: I wasn’t down right here, so I can converse to how—

Ober: There have been various movies of Micki and her housemates entering into dustups with D.C. people who didn’t appear to understand their presence of their metropolis.

Particular person 1: Get the fuck outta right here.

Particular person 2: Get the fuck off of me, bitch. Get the fuck off, the fuck off. Get the fuck off.

Particular person 3: Hey! We caught it on video.

Particular person 2: Cease fucking touching my shit.

Particular person 3: Get out of right here, you pansy.

Ober: However later, in the identical video, there’s this: Our new neighbors are getting harassed by anti-J6 protestors, people who wish to chalk the sidewalk with phrases like “Micki is a grifter.” There are a selection of D.C. cops on the scene. I get tense simply watching it. Lastly, Micki snaps and screams at them.

Officer: I heard all of the commotion. That’s why I obtained out. I can’t see—I didn’t see what occurred out right here.

Particular person 2: I needed to beg him to get out of his automotive.

Witthoeft: You possibly can inform your man that the explanation I’m right here is as a result of three years in the past at this time, y’all killed my child. That’s why I’m right here.

[Music]

Ober: Proper. She’s a mother, and the police killed her child. That’s why she’s right here. She desires to ensure her lifeless daughter isn’t forgotten and that somebody is held accountable for what occurred.

And a technique to try this is to perhaps get your self arrested, or not less than present up all over the place—January 6 trials, congressional hearings, the Supreme Courtroom, rallies, marches, my neighborhood.

One other method for individuals to take discover? A nightly vigil outdoors the D.C. jail, each single evening for greater than 700 nights.

Rosin: And we imply each evening, within the rain or scorching warmth. With out fail, Micki and some supporters stand on what they name Freedom Nook and speak on the telephone with the J6 defendants held contained in the jail.

Ober: As I defined to Hanna:

Ober: Each evening at 7 p.m., these apparently true patriots—

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: —come out, and so they have a vigil for all the January 6 defendants who’re at present being held within the jail, both awaiting trial or awaiting sentencing.

Rosin: Mm-hmm.

Ober: And each evening, they get a January 6 inmate on the telephone, and so they put them on the speaker, after which they take part singing, like, the nationwide anthem or “America the Lovely,” and so they’re chanting, like, “Justice for Ashli.” And the night ends, usually, with “God Bless [the U.S.A.],” Lee Greenwood.

Rosin: Who’s the “they”?

Ober: So there’s a small cadre of true believers who imagine that the individuals within the D.C. jail are political prisoners.

Rosin: Fascinating.

[Music]

Rosin: Fascinating is a boring factor to say. I get that. However I used to be solely simply beginning to put this entire image collectively, that Micki and her associates weren’t in D.C. simply to trigger chaos. They have been right here to push a story that these individuals—the identical ones who turned our metropolis the wrong way up—have been victims of a colossal injustice. And in addition, that January 6 was really a completely acceptable train of freedom and liberty.

And their model of the story was getting traction with some essential individuals—really, an important individual.

Trump: I’m the political prisoner of a failing nation, however I’ll quickly be free on November 5, an important day within the historical past of our nation, and we’ll collectively make America nice once more. Thanks.

Rosin: If our interactions with our new neighbors had unfolded extra like the everyday neighborhood showdown—my MAGA hat versus your dump trump signal—issues might need been simpler as a result of that may be simply straight-up neighbor warfare, pure mutual hatred.

Ober: However it didn’t occur that method. As an alternative, two reverse dramas unfolded: (1) We obtained an up-close, intimate view of how historical past will get rewritten. Name it the lost-cause narrative for the twenty first century: A bunch of Individuals instantly units to work retooling the historical past of an occasion by way of tweets and podcasts and viral video clips, in a method that distorts collective reminiscence endlessly.

Rosin: However then, (2) our new neighbors grew to become actual individuals to us. We additionally obtained an up-close, intimate view of them, their monumental grief, their sleepless nights, their deep friendship—issues that make it more durable to purely hate on somebody.

Ober: This girl, Micki Witthoeft, is many issues to many individuals—Mama Micki to the January 6 defendants, mom of a lifeless home terrorist to others. However to us, she’s one thing else—she’s our neighbor.

Ober: Do you need to hear one thing rotten?

Micki: I don’t know if I do, however I’ll.

Ober: After months of attending to know Micki, I felt like I wanted to admit one thing. She had been telling me how individuals within the neighborhood had usually been good to them, aside from this one time. One among her roommates, Nicole, had been sitting within the automotive, and these two girls walked by and mentioned one thing completely impolite, and—I do know, you’ve already heard the story earlier than.

Ober: Nicole sitting within the automotive—that was me. And I’m absolutely disgusted with myself and embarrassed. Like, as a result of that’s not how I need to be handled, and that’s not how I need to take into consideration individuals. However I did it.

Micki: Oh, nicely, I’m shocked you—I’m impressed that you simply admitted that to me. I actually am. That’s going to be attention-grabbing after I inform Nicole.

Ober: Since that incident, I’ve spent a whole lot of time with Micki attempting to grasp her trigger, her politics, and her anger. I’ve had many moments the place I believed: What the hell am I doing, getting all caught up of their revisionist historical past of January 6? However what I can let you know is that Micki will not be who I believed she was.

She is each bit as fiery as she comes off in speeches and confrontations with individuals who need her out of this metropolis. After almost a yr of understanding her, I’m nonetheless fearful of her. I’ve by no means earlier than in my life met an individual with such penetrating eyes, and she or he wields them to nice impact. If she is staring you down, I promise you, you can see no aid.

Ober: So the window rolls down, and I suppose Nicole mentioned, you already know, “Justice for J6!” Proper? Reflexively, in two seconds, I’m going, “Effectively, you’re within the flawed neighborhood for that.” Proper? Now, I really feel such as you would admire that as a result of generally issues come out of your mouth that perhaps you didn’t take into consideration. I’m an individual who may be very responsible of that, as my mouth runs away with me.

So, I mentioned that, and she or he goes, “We stay right here now. So suck it, bitch.” (Laughs.)

Micki: That’s my Nicole. (Laughs.)

Ober: And I used to be like, Effectively, okay.

[Music]

Rosin: After we first bumped into the militiamobile, we didn’t know something about Micki and her crew. We thought anybody could possibly be residing in that home, with that automotive. Perhaps it was an precise militia headquarters with a cache of weapons within the basement. Perhaps it was just a few wacko whose patriotism had gone completely sideways.

Ober: However now, after almost a yr of reporting this story, we all know a lot extra. And in the remainder of the sequence, we’re going to take you thru this upside-down world we landed in—the place we discovered ourselves speaking conspiracies.

Micki: I don’t know what I imagine them able to. Is it consuming infants and consuming their blood? I don’t assume so. However I don’t know. I imply, I don’t know what they’re as much as.

Ober: How one can instantly end up joking with January 6ers about militias?

Nicole: Should you’re going to return down right here, you’ve obtained to know your militias straight.

Ober: You realize, I can’t—there are too many splinter teams and, you already know.

Nicole: There’s factions. There’s ranges. There’s coloration coding. (Laughs.)

Ober: Hear. When the homosexual militia occurs, I’m there, okay? When that occurs. Till then—

Nicole: Effectively, we’re a rustic of militias, you already know.

Ober: And questioning, What might presumably be coming for us?

Rosin: Like, how lengthy are you going to remain in D.C.?

Brandon Fellows: I plan to remain ’til, like, January 7. (Laughs.)

Rosin: That feels vaguely threatening.

Fellows: I might see why you’ll say that.

Rosin: That’s arising on We Dwell Right here Now.

Ober: We Dwell Right here Now is a manufacturing of The Atlantic. The present was reported, written, and government produced by me, Lauren Ober. Hanna Rosin reported, wrote, and edited the sequence. Our senior producer is Rider Alsop. Our producer is Ethan Brooks. Authentic scoring, sound design, and blend engineering by Brendan Baker.

This sequence was edited by Scott Stossel and Claudine Ebeid. Truth-checking by Michelle Ciarrocca. Artwork course by Colin Hunter. Challenge administration by Nancy DeVille.

Claudine Ebeid is the chief producer of Atlantic audio, and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

The Atlantic’s government editor is Adrienne LaFrance. Jeffrey Goldberg is The Atlantic’s editor-in-chief.

Nicole. After which did I say one thing like, Effectively, bitch, I stay right here now, or one thing?

Ober: Very near that. “We stay right here now, so—”

Nicole: Get used to it?

Ober: No.

Nicole: Suck it? Fuck it?

Ober: No. You’re proper on the “suck it.”

Nicole: (Laughs.) I don’t know.

Ober: “Suck it,” what? “Suck it,” who?

Nicole: Suck it, fascist? (Laughs.) A lot extra fascist than me. Don’t inform me what I mentioned.

Ober: You mentioned, “Suck it, bitch.”

Nicole: Oh! Okay. Okay.